Legendary Pokémon

This thread is made because of the police violence in Taksim square in Turkey,but it's a general conversation about violence by the police.
As you may know,the last four days,Turkish people are protesting about the government project to “pedestrianize” the historic square,which will result in the destruction of the last trees in the area.That means that the last source of oxygen in Istanbul/Constantinople will be destroyed.
So,protesters began gathering in the park and word spread through social media as more pro-park, anti-government Turks showed up to sit in front of the bulldozers.
As you can see here...

vice.com Wrote:Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of the AKP wasn't interested in starting a dialogue with the occupation and gave a speech on Wednesday that made it clear that a decision on the park’s fate had already been made. By then, many protesters had set up camp at the park and were sleeping in their tents. At dawn on Thursday, May 30, the police entered the park, firing tear gas and burning tents. The bulldozers were stopped, however, when opposition politicians Sırrı Sureyya Önder and Gülseren Onanç stood in front of them and demanded to see proper permits.

Even with the police using pepper spray as if it were bug repellent, the occupation continued, and even grew. On Thursday, photos of protesters reading to the police spread around the internet, and those who are involved in the occupation say they are committed to nonviolence.

So,peaceful protesters were attacked from the police (commanded by Erdogan) because they were fighting for their rights?

You may say that you don't know any other example of police violence,but I will tell you 3 more examples:
1)Tahrir square http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Re...on_of_2011)
2)Syntagma square http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Greek_riots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%...k_protests

And you can see more incidents here.



So,what's your opinion about police brutality?Have you ever become a victim or do you know any victims?Do you know any other examples of this kind of violence?Do you believe that it's possible to stop police violence?
Feel free to discuss about it here.
Also,you can discuss about what's happening in Taksim square now.


P.S.1:
http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/
There's a saying that says ''One picture,one thousand words).
So,that's what happening in Turkey now.

P.S.2:
(this is for the Greek users)
Do you think that we should do something here?
Because Turkish started protesting about some trees and then about police brutality.We have so many problems here (unemployment,low salaries,suicides,taxes,etc) and we don't do anything about it.I don't say we should take guns and kill all the 300,but maybe a peaceful protest.

A protest sure, any number of them. Would they magically create jobs or money out of thin air?
Unemployment, low salaries, taxes, are the result of an ill fared country, not the opposite.
The failed state financials do not explain why the private sector is anemic and failed as well. Even if the EU decided to bail us out for free, nothing would change in an instant.

(01-06-2013 08:16 PM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]A protest sure, any number of them. Would they magically create jobs or money out of thin air?

I don't know,but we have to do something to show that we don't agree with the government's plans,imo.
They will continue raising the taxes,lowering the salaries if we don't do anything.
Also,why do you,my parents and,generally,all Greeks have to pay taxes,when people like Tsohatzopoulos and Papandreou have stolen money and the government can take it back?The reason?They want to destroy us.
(Maybe we have to make a new thread for this conversation.)

(01-06-2013 07:45 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]P.S.2:
(this is for the Greek users)
Do you think that we should do something here?

Throw the government out. Leave the union. Find everyone involved in the PASOK employment scam and put the blame on them. (iow make them pay/throw them in prison or , just let the eu deal with them. That includes politicians of course.) free everyone uninvolved from prison (people who couldn't pay their debts that however had nothing to do with the scam.)

(01-06-2013 07:45 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]Because Turkish started protesting

*turks.

(01-06-2013 07:45 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]take guns and kill all the 300

not going to work.

(01-06-2013 07:45 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]maybe a peaceful protest.

not going to work. we need an organized revolution of sorts , anymore. A few little protests , peaceful or not are just not going to work. What we're missing basically is a sense of coordination , organization. No one's protesting because everyone is waiting for someone else to start or simply because they're afraid/can't be bothered to do anything.

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(01-06-2013 08:16 PM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]A protest sure, any number of them. Would they magically create jobs or money out of thin air?
Unemployment, low salaries, taxes, are the result of an ill fared country, not the opposite.
The failed state financials do not explain why the private sector is anemic and failed as well. Even if the EU decided to bail us out for free, nothing would change in an instant.

also , this. Greece is corrupt , it's the people that are the problem.

I'd even go as far as to say that we pretty much need a (good) dictatorship to force everything to work properly. Although i don't really think anyone's up for the job in this country. (Best case scenario , we end up with a Kim-Jong-il level dictatorship. )

It's awfully sad when young, educated people support violent uprises. Becoming who you oppose to is not a solution, just α perpetuation of the problem. You really can do better than this.

(01-06-2013 08:39 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]They will continue raising the taxes,lowering the salaries

as they should be.

I don't agree however that people completely uninvolved in any of these scams are required to pay as well.

(01-06-2013 08:39 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]Also,why do you,my parents and,generally,all Greeks have to pay taxes,when people like Tsohatzopoulos and Papandreou have stolen money and the government can take it back?The reason?

half of the population is corrupt as well , although it is true that these politicians caused much larger problems.

Pretty much , we need to copy Iceland.

Disregard the government , put the blame on the 300.


as for turkey , i'm pretty sure this square thing is just an excuse for them to protest against their oppressive government. Freedom restrictions and all. I mean , it's not just a few trees they're getting so worked up about.

(01-06-2013 09:05 PM)Kingnothing412 Wrote: [ -> ]we pretty much need a (good) dictatorship

I strongly disagree with you.
What we have now,is kinda like dictatorship.
The EU will definitely kick us away.One of the rules is for every country in EU to have democracy.
Best case scenario:what happened in 1973 in Polytexneio.
Worst case scenario:No more Greeks in Greece.(Greeks will be either dead or immigrants)
As for the Taksim,it wasn't an excuse.It started as a peaceful protest.Then,it evolved into a protest against the police brutality and the''chemical Tagip''.

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-06-2013 09:05 PM)Kingnothing412 Wrote: [ -> ]we pretty much need a (good) dictatorship

I strongly disagree with you.
What we have now,is kinda like dictatorship.

No it's not. You know you're not in a dictatorship when you're free to say «this is a dictatorship» with no consequences.

When in pain, one does not cut their arm off to get rid of the pain.

(01-06-2013 09:25 PM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]It's awfully sad when young, educated people support violent uprises.

Not necessarily violent. Just as much as we need to do what needs to be done.

(01-06-2013 09:25 PM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]You really can do better than this.

is it working though? (assuming you mean peaceful protests) Because i don't see anything happening.

another (albeit ridiculous) solution is requesting to become independent countries and reuniting. ( Well , actually i'm not sure how that would work or why we'd do that instead of just removing the government form our premises.)

Then , again , that would never work here because this country has no sense of order. that is our main problem i believe.

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also , that would probably mean loosing athens. So yeah , that's not going to work either.

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]I strongly disagree with you.
What we have now,is kinda like dictatorship.

No , we have a corrupt government. this is oligarchy.


If done properly , i believe it could force the state back on track. The problem is the politicians. It's the people. The way we are now , democracy would not work because the people , the state as a whole is not coordinated. We aren't organized. we need it enforced , anymore. It's sad , but , is there anything that would work better?

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]The EU will definitely kick us away.

i hope.

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]One of the rules is for every country in EU to have democracy.

Well yeah , for the time being , that's not going to work. not in the state we are now. It'll just spout more problems.

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]Best case scenario:what happened in 1973 in Polytexneio.
Worst case scenario:No more Greeks in Greece.(Greeks will be either dead or immigrants)

Dictatorship != fascism.

At least , what i meant was , we need stricter surveillance , without the corruption. Ok that was probably the wrong word , pretty much , a form of monarchy (due to our current inability to communicate with eachother) to straighten out the whole system , make everyone do their job properly , including police. Filter the general corruption. Then , once we've reached a european level of order (see: Germany , Britain , France) revert to Democracy.

This is mostly referring to people not doing their bloody jobs right. Or just changing the whole system in things , the water supply network , electricity network , water and electricity cuts are unacceptable , you don't see stuff like that in the countries mentioned above do you? That's mostly due to sloppy construction/repairing work. I'm not even going to mention public buildings (it's as if our workers are competing with the soviets , for goodness sake). The public transport system , trains and buses being late by 30 minutes or more , people slacking off when doing jobs their assigned to or just generally not even trying to do a good proper job , actually making sure stuff functions properly. Bribes in the public medical system , authorities abusing their power or simply just slacking off... this general attitude of "eh , i'm going to get paid at the end of the month no matter what so whatever".

(01-06-2013 09:40 PM)8hachi8 Wrote: [ -> ]As for the Taksim,it wasn't an excuse.It started as a peaceful protest.Then,it evolved into a protest against the police brutality and the''chemical Tagip''.

Αφορμη. not sure how to say that in English properly. couldn't be bothered to google. That's basically what i meant , it wasn't really about these trees at all , it's mostly about freedom restrictions and such. The government trying to import Islamic rules or whatever.

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(01-06-2013 09:45 PM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]No it's not. You know you're not in a dictatorship when you're free to say «this is a dictatorship» with no consequences.

welp , wrong choice of words then. Although , a dictatorship does not necessarily mean no freedom of speech , right? That's why i said , if done right this could prove very productive

Quote:Although , a dictatorship does not necessarily mean no freedom of speech , right?

Actually, it does. It's pretty much the definite example of no-freedom of speech.

Quote:At least , what i meant was , we need stricter surveillance , without the corruption. Ok that was probably the wrong word , pretty much , a form of monarchy (due to our current inability to communicate with eachother) to straighten out the whole system , make everyone do their job properly , including police. Filter the general corruption. Then , once we've reached a european level of order (see: Germany , Britain , France) revert to Democracy.

And who exactly would be the uncorrupted, honest man (or group) that would do us the blessing of dissolving democracy? There's never been either a dictator or monarch that raised a country's living standards, so much as one that parted voluntarily.
Your beliefs are contradictory and incoherent I'm afraid; you cannot claim that our democracy is a non-functioning oligarchy and then support antiquated beliefs about some kind of dictator-messiah that would save us all.

Leaving the European Union? Really, after all these years of human history, with wars and conflicts, you don't feel as if you belong to a greater family, as if you have to belong to one? And do you think your plentiful way of living —because it is plentiful if you ever gaze upon other countries— can be sustained outside this family?
In order to stand at your feet instead of running over coal hoping scars will not form, one has to be patient and rational. Change is slow, tough, needs effort; nothing like some heaven sent manna.
No humanly accepted change can come from volatile, purposeless uprisings anymore, unless for some reason you do not value your political opponents' lives; and let's not get started about collateral damage.
Human lives, are irreplaceable in democratic societies. The judicial system is supposed to reform , neither punish nor force revenge. Otherwise, we are nothing more than brainless spectators in Roman arenas.

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]And who exactly would be the uncorrupted, honest man (or group) that would do us the blessing of dissolving democracy? There's never been either a dictator or monarch that raised a country's living standards, so much as one that parted voluntarily.

This is exactly what i'm talking about , it's just not happening. Never has , and never will. It's not possible. Unless , however...

we let Germany take over , completely...

but who's going to be ok with that

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]Your beliefs are contradictory and incoherent I'm afraid; you cannot claim that our democracy is a non-functioning oligarchy

But it isn't democracy , really , is it? I'm not saying democracy is like oligarchy , i'm saying we , as a state do not have democracy. i don't really think you can call it democracy.

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]and then support antiquated beliefs about some kind of dictator-messiah that would save us all.

but i never said i support it. (as in , want it actually done , that'd be horrific if that actually happened , because as you said , no one's fit for it.) i said that's the only thing that could fix the problem. (or , letting the union take complete control. As in , give up the country as a whole. but that's not happening either.)

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]Leaving the European Union? Really, after all these years of human history, with wars and conflicts, you don't feel as if you belong to a greater family, as if you have to belong to one?

not really.

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]And do you think your plentiful way of living —because it is plentiful if you ever gaze upon other countries— can be sustained outside this family?

It should be able to. Traveling might become a bit more difficult , finding jobs in other countries also , importing/exporting products and stuff , but , how bad can it really become? Turkey seems to be doing fine (at least , economically) , and they're not in the union.

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]In order to stand at your feet instead of running over coal hoping scars will not form, one has to be patient and rational. Change is slow, tough, needs effort; nothing like some heaven sent manna.

a further elaboration on this?

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]No humanly accepted change can come from volatile, purposeless uprisings anymore, unless for some reason you do not value your political opponents' lives; and let's not get started about collateral damage.

I don't know , do we need to? Do we have any other options? It goes without saying , violence is a last resort.

(02-06-2013 12:13 AM)Arty2 Wrote: [ -> ]Human lives, are irreplaceable in democratic societies. The judicial system is supposed to reform , neither punish nor force revenge. Otherwise, we are nothing more than brainless spectators in Roman arenas.

so , what should be done?

A dictatorship can never be good and that's why it is a dictatorship and not an elected political party.I hope that none of us really wants to face a true dictatorship;if you ask me,people who claim that some older dictatorships were better than the current system are fascists who search for excuses to get their beliefs accepted by the mass.A similar case is the political party of Golden Dawn;do you know how it gets accepted ? It blames the political parties for being corrupt - which is true - and tells the people that despite working like a gang it should be accepted because it isn't corrupt(yet..).But this way of thinking should stop,we have to throw out of the parliament - with our vote - everyone who doesn't work as he/she should,not let even worse people get in because of the already bad ones working there. If you had asked me one year before I'd probably be in favor of a revolution that would change the way the current system works to a more friendlier to the people system.But after the previous elections I understood that the mass gets what it really deserves,even if some people don't deserve living all this situation.It is the mass who vote the political parties of our current government and at the same time is "crying" for its policy ; it is the mass who voted the same corrupt people for 35 years ,being aware if their corruption and not doing anything.We are responsible for our problems, they weren't created just by the elite because we voted the elite.By the way,the most important problem of our country isn't the lack of money; it is the lack of education.I am afraid that the majority of people is unable to tell the "good" things from the "bad" ones and unless this changes we'll never live in the society we all dream.The crisis we live into can help us become more mature people by thinking what we did wrong and what can we do to avoid living a similar situation in the future.The world is changing and it is on our hands to make this change be a good one.

At the end:

Anonymous Wrote:We are Anonumous.
We are legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Government of Turkey,it is too late to expect us.

If I judge from that,it may be true.

(02-06-2013 12:21 PM)christos21 Wrote: [ -> ]A dictatorship can never be good

i believe if the leader actually cared for the good of his country instead of his own only , it could. It just can never work because no one cares about the country.

Anyway , i'll have agree with the rest of your post. It is sad though that the best option for individuals is to move to another state because no one can come to an agreement with eachother.


(as for anonymous , i'm really starting to dislike what it's become , but that's an entirely different matter.)

What do you mean by your last post , 888?